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TOD collections onboard?

Thread starter Argyle 1980 Start date 17 Jul 2021 Status Not open for further replies. 1 2 Next 1 of 2

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Argyle 1980

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Joined 21 Jul 2020 Messages 183 Location Cornwall When I was attempting to collect some tickets from Plymouth to Folkestone yesterday morning, I experienced the anomaly a lot of people seem to experience about not having a physical card as I'd purchased with PayZilch (an interest free Klarna type platform) but in the form of a virtual Mastercard in their app as unlike Klarna they don't have check out facilities directly with retailers. Obviously the physical card doesn't exist so tried using my Barclaycard but it refused it. Asked the staff at the help desk about it as the queue at ticket office was absolutely ridiculous. There was somebody I assume was a train manager or ticket examiner with them and he said I can retrieve them for you and proceeded to get his machine out of his bag and a few minutes later he had printed all my tickets off for me from the collection reference without a card.

My question is can all onboard staff now do this? Or is it something they can actually do but not something TOCs like doing?
Also the tickets had Aztec QR codes on them. Kind of reminder EastCoast doing that too back when they were around. Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register , or click here to log in R

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17 Jul 2021 #2 S

skyhigh

Established Member

Joined 14 Sep 2014 Messages 6,143 Argyle 1980 said: My question is can all onboard staff now do this? Click to expand No. Depends on TOC. 17 Jul 2021 #3

Wallsendmag

Established Member

Joined 11 Dec 2014 Messages 5,559 Location Wallsend or somewhere in GB Goes very much against the idea of have your tickets before you board our train. 17 Jul 2021 #4 L

LowLevel

Established Member

Joined 26 Oct 2013 Messages 8,018 Wallsendmag said: Goes very much against the idea of have your tickets before you board our train. Click to expand
It depends on your work environment I suppose.

My own TOC enabled it years ago for guards and revenue protection although with the move to online ticketing it does get far less use than it did.

The rationale was twofold - firstly it meant that if the TVMs and booking offices crapped out at some or all locations rather than just allowing travel with reference numbers you could print the tickets.

Secondly we had, and still have (though there's a programme to correct this in most but not all locations) a large number of stations without TVMs that still attract feeder traffic into long distance services. There often wasn't much time for them to collect their tickets at interchanges and the company policy for these stations was to allow travel on reference numbers so again it would be good customer service for the guard to print the tickets and also reduce spurious refunds of unused tickets should they make it to the other end without collecting.

On the other hand if you serve mostly or entirely stations with ticket facilities it becomes a less useful feature.

I remember some mornings when the old Parkeon Northern machine at Dore had died heading to Manchester I'd go through the train collecting 15 or 20 reference numbers to print off en masse during a phone signal area and deliver to seats for people. Same from Liverpool South Parkway in the mornings. 17 Jul 2021 #5 S

skyhigh

Established Member

Joined 14 Sep 2014 Messages 6,143 LowLevel said: It depends on your work environment I suppose.

My own TOC enabled it years ago for guards and revenue protection although with the move to online ticketing it does get far less use than it did.

The rationale was twofold - firstly it meant that if the TVMs and booking offices crapped out at some or all locations rather than just allowing travel with reference numbers you could print the tickets.

Secondly we had, and still have (though there's a programme to correct this in most but not all locations) a large number of stations without TVMs that still attract feeder traffic into long distance services. There often wasn't much time for them to collect their tickets at interchanges and the company policy for these stations was to allow travel on reference numbers so again it would be good customer service for the guard to print the tickets and also reduce spurious refunds of unused tickets should they make it to the other end without collecting.

On the other hand if you serve mostly or entirely stations with ticket facilities it becomes a less useful feature.

I remember some mornings when the old Parkeon Northern machine at Dore had died heading to Manchester I'd go through the train collecting 15 or 20 reference numbers to print off en masse during a phone signal area and deliver to seats for people. Same from Liverpool South Parkway in the mornings. Click to expand I wish we had the option to use it with our discretion, but as you say they decided against it given the plan was for every station we serve to have TVMs capable of printing them (not that that helps when they've been vandalised so many times at certain stations it's been decided not to replace them ) 17 Jul 2021 #6 W

Wolfie

Established Member

Joined 17 Aug 2010 Messages 6,847 LowLevel said: It depends on your work environment I suppose.

My own TOC enabled it years ago for guards and revenue protection although with the move to online ticketing it does get far less use than it did.

The rationale was twofold - firstly it meant that if the TVMs and booking offices crapped out at some or all locations rather than just allowing travel with reference numbers you could print the tickets.

Secondly we had, and still have (though there's a programme to correct this in most but not all locations) a large number of stations without TVMs that still attract feeder traffic into long distance services. There often wasn't much time for them to collect their tickets at interchanges and the company policy for these stations was to allow travel on reference numbers so again it would be good customer service for the guard to print the tickets and also reduce spurious refunds of unused tickets should they make it to the other end without collecting.

On the other hand if you serve mostly or entirely stations with ticket facilities it becomes a less useful feature.

I remember some mornings when the old Parkeon Northern machine at Dore had died heading to Manchester I'd go through the train collecting 15 or 20 reference numbers to print off en masse during a phone signal area and deliver to seats for people. Same from Liverpool South Parkway in the mornings. Click to expand I have been critical of TOCs in the past but this sounds like sensible, even enlightened, passenger-friendly decision making. 17 Jul 2021 #7 A

Argyle 1980

Member

Joined 21 Jul 2020 Messages 183 Location Cornwall Wallsendmag said: Goes very much against the idea of have your tickets before you board our train. Click to expand Ultimately the only way to negate this is to remove the requirement of having to insert the card used into the TVM. I suspect some TOCs see it as a means to stop anyone trying to blag a journey on a reference number, or actually having a genuine booking and then refunding it if they don't get asked by the inspector.

It also offers a better value ticketing options for people who's local stations have neither a TVM or office and have to have expensive walk up fares forced on them through no fault of their own.

LowLevel said: It depends on your work environment I suppose.

My own TOC enabled it years ago for guards and revenue protection although with the move to online ticketing it does get far less use than it did.

The rationale was twofold - firstly it meant that if the TVMs and booking offices crapped out at some or all locations rather than just allowing travel with reference numbers you could print the tickets.

Secondly we had, and still have (though there's a programme to correct this in most but not all locations) a large number of stations without TVMs that still attract feeder traffic into long distance services. There often wasn't much time for them to collect their tickets at interchanges and the company policy for these stations was to allow travel on reference numbers so again it would be good customer service for the guard to print the tickets and also reduce spurious refunds of unused tickets should they make it to the other end without collecting.

On the other hand if you serve mostly or entirely stations with ticket facilities it becomes a less useful feature.

I remember some mornings when the old Parkeon Northern machine at Dore had died heading to Manchester I'd go through the train collecting 15 or 20 reference numbers to print off en masse during a phone signal area and deliver to seats for people. Same from Liverpool South Parkway in the mornings. Click to expand Some of the connections in from Falmouth and Penryn are very tight at Truro for the North bound services so obviously if tickets can be collected onboard now, then it's a far better option than say a dozen people all with the idea of trying to retrieve their tickets at Truro during the interchange.
To be honest I'm very surprised Falmouth and Penryn don't at the very least a TVM given the large number of students there. It would also enable GWR to make them penalty fare stations as I know they lose a hell of lot of ticket revenue from those stations. Last edited: 17 Jul 2021 17 Jul 2021 #8

Haywain

Veteran Member

Joined 3 Feb 2013 Messages 18,473 Argyle 1980 said: Ultimately the only way to negate this is to remove the requirement of having to insert the card used into the TVM. Click to expand What’s that got to do with it? 17 Jul 2021 #9 S

skyhigh

Established Member

Joined 14 Sep 2014 Messages 6,143 Argyle 1980 said: Some of the connections in from Falmouth and Penryn are very tight at Truro for the North bound services so obviously if tickets can be collected onboard now, then it's a far better option than say a dozen people all with the idea of trying to retrieve their tickets at Truro during the interchange. Click to expand The basic rule is that you need to hold the ticket to travel - that's why when you book a ticket to collect it asks you to select the station you wish to collect from to ensure there's a machine there. If the machine is broken, you'll likely get shown discretion onboard. If there's no machine, or there is one and you don't use it, you might find yourself being treated as not having a ticket. There's certainly no rule that you'll be able to collect your tickets onboard if you don't at the origin station. 17 Jul 2021 #10 A

Argyle 1980

Member

Joined 21 Jul 2020 Messages 183 Location Cornwall skyhigh said: The basic rule is that you need to hold the ticket to travel - that's why when you book a ticket to collect it asks you to select the station you wish to collect from to ensure there's a machine there. If the machine is broken, you'll likely get shown discretion onboard. If there's no machine, or there is one and you don't use it, you might find yourself being treated as not having a ticket. There's certainly no rule that you'll be able to collect your tickets onboard if you don't at the origin station. Click to expand Meant more towards where the TVM refuses to give tickets out when the card used to purchase them cannot be inserted, because it doesn't exist.

Haywain said: What’s that got to do with it? Click to expand If someone buys a ticket in good faith thinking they can collect it with any card, which is definately allowed by some TOCs or machines, but not allowed by others.
I'm sure the bulk of regular passengers have no idea this anomaly exists when buying with a virtual Visa or Mastercard, and that they'll be unable to collect their tickets in these circumstances.
As these types of cards are starting to become more and more common than physical cards are, these isn't this the time for the industry to do something. Can't imagine it would be that difficult for the merchant system to identify these cards by their BIN number and warn that these cards cannot collect tickets.
Seem to vaguely remember the old fast tickets machines (pre chip and pin I think) not being able to take non standard cards (example mint cards) which the corner was shaped differently and a warning was issued by the merchant when a BIN number identified such a card whilst purchasing. Last edited: 17 Jul 2021 17 Jul 2021 #11 A

alistairlees

Established Member

Joined 29 Dec 2016 Messages 3,954 ToD is on its way out. No-one's going to be spending money changing stuff. All retail sites say: you will need the same card as you paid with to collect with , though PayPal, Apple Pay etc. of course mean 'any card' collection. Some stations and on-board staff can issue ToD too, sometimes overriding the specific card requirement. 17 Jul 2021 #12 A

Argyle 1980

Member

Joined 21 Jul 2020 Messages 183 Location Cornwall alistairlees said: ToD is on its way out. No-one's going to be spending money changing stuff. All retail sites say: you will need the same card as you paid with to collect with , though PayPal, Apple Pay etc. of course mean 'any card' collection. Some stations and on-board staff can issue ToD too, sometimes overriding the specific card requirement. Click to expand Yes Google pay and warrants allow any card collection but that definitely isn't the case with virtual Visa and Mastercard transactions where the physical card doesn't exist, yet the machines refuse to release the tickets unless the original card used in the purchase is inserted, which the card obviously doesn't exist.

Think TOD being phased out is atleast a generation away yet unless the likes of Southeastern and TFL are forced to accept Etickets and paper roll tickets etc, and judging by my own and other people's communications with SE over the matter suggests it won't be anytime soon as they were adamant they have absolutely no intention of embracing them. 17 Jul 2021 #13

Haywain

Veteran Member

Joined 3 Feb 2013 Messages 18,473 Argyle 1980 said: Think TOD being phased out is atleast a generation away yet unless the likes of Southeastern and TFL are forced to accept Etickets and paper roll tickets etc, and judging by my own and other people's communications with SE over the matter suggests it won't be anytime soon as they were adamant they have absolutely no intention of embracing them. Click to expand Definitely on the way out. TfL may be a problem in the short term but I think the advent of GBR will provide the unified approach the industry has been lacking for the past 25 years. 17 Jul 2021 #14 A

alistairlees

Established Member

Joined 29 Dec 2016 Messages 3,954 Argyle 1980 said: Yes Google pay and warrants allow any card collection but that definitely isn't the case with virtual Visa and Mastercard transactions where the physical card doesn't exist, yet the machines refuse to release the tickets unless the original card used in the purchase is inserted, which the card obviously doesn't exist. Click to expand Where the card is known - whether it physically exists or not - then same card collection should be required from most, if not all, retailers. Virtual cards come in the category of the card being 'known'.

Where the card is unknown - so PayPal, Apple Pay, Google Pay, Alipay etc. (these act as intermediaries, so the card cannot be known), there is no choice for retailers to offer anything other than any card collection .

Argyle 1980 said: Think TOD being phased out is atleast a generation away yet unless the likes of Southeastern and TFL are forced to accept Etickets and paper roll tickets etc, and judging by my own and other people's communications with SE over the matter suggests it won't be anytime soon as they were adamant they have absolutely no intention of embracing them. Click to expand The remaining TOCs that don't already will accept eTickets / barcode tickets shortly. Solutions for getting across London are being discussed. ToD will be gone in less than 5 years. 17 Jul 2021 #15

RPI

Established Member

Joined 6 Dec 2010 Messages 2,922 We routinely do it on GWR (though less and less) on the branch lines, the official line is it should be collected prior to travel and it can only be printed from our TTK machines if there's not cross London or a travel card involved (unless ita one of the very few and far between sets with a CCST printer) 17 Jul 2021 #16 A

Argyle 1980

Member

Joined 21 Jul 2020 Messages 183 Location Cornwall alistairlees said: Where the card is known - whether it physically exists or not - then same card collection should be required from most, if not all, retailers. Virtual cards come in the category of the card being 'known'.

Where the card is unknown - so PayPal, Apple Pay, Google Pay, Alipay etc. (these act as intermediaries, so the card cannot be known), there is no choice for retailers to offer anything other than any card collection .


The remaining TOCs that don't already will accept eTickets / barcode tickets shortly. Solutions for getting across London are being discussed. ToD will be gone in less than 5 years. Click to expand So the bottom line is if somebody pays with a virtual card, then there's a pretty good chance that they will encounter collection problems?

Something I just thought of now though was if somebody linked their virtual card to their Samsung Pay account and had the particular virtual card as the default card on Samsung Pay and then made the purchase through Samsung Pay and when going to collect the tickets, insert the physical Samsung Pay card to see if it works. Unsure if it would work though because even when you pay instore with Samsung Pay either via the device or the physical card, it generates a different card number on every transaction. 17 Jul 2021 #17 A

alistairlees

Established Member

Joined 29 Dec 2016 Messages 3,954 Argyle 1980 said: So the bottom line is if somebody pays with a virtual card, then there's a pretty good chance that they will encounter collection problems? Click to expand If you haven’t physically got the card, then you won’t be able to collect with it.
Argyle 1980 said: Something I just thought of now though was if somebody linked their virtual card to their Samsung Pay account and had the particular virtual card as the default card on Samsung Pay and then made the purchase through Samsung Pay and when going to collect the tickets, insert the physical Samsung Pay card to see if it works. Unsure if it would work though because even when you pay instore with Samsung Pay either via the device or the physical card, it generates a different card number on every transaction. Click to expand Is Samsung Pay supported by any retailers? If it is then I expect it won’t be a problem; it will behave the same as Apple Pay. But I don’t know so I can’t be certain.

Basically, if you have entered card details onto the retailer’s website, then you need to have that card to collect ToD. If you have not entered card details directly into the retailer’s website - because you have used an intermediary such as PayPal or Apple Pay that will not pass on card details to the retailer - then you can collect with any card. 17 Jul 2021 #18

Wallsendmag

Established Member

Joined 11 Dec 2014 Messages 5,559 Location Wallsend or somewhere in GB alistairlees said: If you haven’t physically got the card, then you won’t be able to collect with it.

Is Samsung Pay supported by any retailers? If it is then I expect it won’t be a problem; it will behave the same as Apple Pay. But I don’t know so I can’t be certain.

Basically, if you have entered card details onto the retailer’s website, then you need to have that card to collect ToD. If you have not entered card details directly into the retailer’s website - because you have used an intermediary such as PayPal or Apple Pay that will not pass on card details to the retailer - then you can collect with any card. Click to expand You can use contactless to start the ToD process on our TVMs so it may work 17 Jul 2021 #19

Mcr Warrior

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Joined 8 Jan 2009 Messages 14,036 Argyle 1980 said: As these types of cards are starting to become more and more common than physical cards are, these isn't this the time for the industry to do something. Click to expand Interesting assertion if that is indeed the case. Can anyone confirm? 17 Jul 2021 #20 J

johncrossley

Established Member

Joined 30 Mar 2021 Messages 3,398 Location London Mcr Warrior said: Interesting assertion if that is indeed the case. Can anyone confirm? Click to expand
You can create as many virtual cards as you want. Many people like the idea of having a card number that can only be used once, so they use it for one transaction and then get rid of it. If they want to make another purchase then they get another card number, use it once, then get rid of it again. So even if there aren't so many *people* with virtual cards, the total number of card numbers being used is higher. 17 Jul 2021 #21

Starmill

Veteran Member

Joined 18 May 2012 Messages 24,649 Location Bolton johncrossley said: You can create as many virtual cards as you want. Many people like the idea of having a card number that can only be used once, so they use it for one transaction and then get rid of it. If they want to make another purchase then they get another card number, use it once, then get rid of it again. So even if there aren't so many *people* with virtual cards, the total number of card numbers being used is higher. Click to expand It's very useful if you want to sign up for a subscription service (such as Netflix) but don't want to commit to more than the first month. That way if you use your first month but having tried it out don't want to keep the subscription, you're protected from your card being charged a second time because you forgot to ensure that you properly cancelled. 17 Jul 2021 #22 A

Argyle 1980

Member

Joined 21 Jul 2020 Messages 183 Location Cornwall alistairlees said: If you haven’t physically got the card, then you won’t be able to collect with it.

Is Samsung Pay supported by any retailers? If it is then I expect it won’t be a problem; it will behave the same as Apple Pay. But I don’t know so I can’t be certain.

Basically, if you have entered card details onto the retailer’s website, then you need to have that card to collect ToD. If you have not entered card details directly into the retailer’s website - because you have used an intermediary such as PayPal or Apple Pay that will not pass on card details to the retailer - then you can collect with any card. Click to expand The virtual card in question is via an app called PayZilch (similar to Klarna) but instead of being directed to that as a payment option on a site, the app instead generates a virtual Mastercard badged debit card which you can reveal a number on if paying online or simply to use as contactless via Google/Samsung Pay if in the actual shop or at a station and it's this particular virtual Mastercard that's caused me the problem as it said it needed inserting.
Samsung Pay is slightly different to Google/Apple Pay as it also has a physical card (Mastercard debit) to back up the NFC payment device on the phone. The card doesn't have any numbers printed on it though, so in order to access these and the cards pin number, they need to be revealed in the Samsung Pay or Curve app, but like I alluded these numbers change after every transaction with the exception of the BIN number (first six digits) which stay the same. A machine couldn't identify someone's card by the BIN alone as it only identifies the issuer within the Visa/Mastercard schemes. Example of this is say Natwest visa debit cards start 4751 followed by either 28 if it's an online full authorization card (basically old Visa Electron) or 29 if it's an offline card.
As you rightly say, most TOCs don't directly take Google/Apple/Samsung online but it is possible to pay via Samsung Pay online via revealing this Mastercard number in the app and entering it at the checkout as if it was a physical card. Again because these numbers are completely randomly generated on each transaction, then a TVM is unlikely to recognise the Samsung Pay physical card as the card used in the transaction and refuse to release the tickets.

That's what the physical Samsung Pay card looks like. See there's absolutely no numbers on it. These can oy be randomly generated when opening the app.

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infobleep

Veteran Member

Joined 27 Feb 2011 Messages 13,162 alistairlees said: Where the card is known - whether it physically exists or not - then same card collection should be required from most, if not all, retailers. Virtual cards come in the category of the card being 'known'.

Where the card is unknown - so PayPal, Apple Pay, Google Pay, Alipay etc. (these act as intermediaries, so the card cannot be known), there is no choice for retailers to offer anything other than any card collection .


The remaining TOCs that don't already will accept eTickets / barcode tickets shortly. Solutions for getting across London are being discussed. ToD will be gone in less than 5 years. Click to expand Glad to hear the remaining TOCs will accept them. I hope this extends to TOCs who do issue and accept dtickets but not for all flows that don't involve TfL. I have specifically excluded TfL when I talk about flows not enabled. 18 Jul 2021 #24 A

Argyle 1980

Member

Joined 21 Jul 2020 Messages 183 Location Cornwall Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't London Underground use to accept paper roll tickets in the 90s that had the + marked on them? I'm pretty sure I ended up with them a fair few times in late 90s when it was only quickfare machined at Folkestone Central. I know day travel cards needed to be exchanged at the London Terminal but I'm sure that the + tickets were fine. I also seem to remember the hand written white carbon copy notebook type tickets that revenue inspectors used too use could even mark an + onto it if required as I'd often go to my dad's in Liverpool straight from school on last day of a term and go straight from Sandling Station and I'm sure RPIs got on at Tonbridge once and issued me such a ticket. 18 Jul 2021 #25 I

island

Veteran Member

Joined 30 Dec 2010 Messages 17,090 Location 0036 Yes, PORTIS and SPORTIS onboard machines (in use until about 2006) could not encode the magnetic stripe of tickets. 18 Jul 2021 #26 A

Argyle 1980

Member

Joined 21 Jul 2020 Messages 183 Location Cornwall island said: Yes, PORTIS and SPORTIS onboard machines (in use until about 2006) could not encode the magnetic stripe of tickets. Click to expand Yes, no strips on the old ticket stock. I'm sure there was rationale around this but I do seem to remember in the late 90s and early 00s that some operators (Know virgin was one) would only use these machines in order to facilitate taking card payments with the train manager writing the actual travel ticket out manually.
Saying that, I'm sure I remember seeing a GNER train manager selling a ticket once in the form of a standard hand written ticket but instead of using a portis machine to swipe the card, he instead took a carbon sheet from his pocket and used a small preserve jam jar in order to trace the card onto the carbon slip. 18 Jul 2021 #27 W

WelshBluebird

Established Member

Joined 14 Jan 2010 Messages 5,159 Guess the guards being able to do it removes it as an excuse for those trying it on! (With them thinking the guard can't print out tickets). 18 Jul 2021 #28 I

island

Veteran Member

Joined 30 Dec 2010 Messages 17,090 Location 0036 Argyle 1980 said: Yes, no strips on the old ticket stock. I'm sure there was rationale around this Click to expand I imagine when SPORTIS was being specced in the 1990s, the technology to encode magnetic stripe tickets in a portable device was cost-prohibitive, if it even existed at all. 18 Jul 2021 #29

Wallsendmag

Established Member

Joined 11 Dec 2014 Messages 5,559 Location Wallsend or somewhere in GB island said: I imagine when SPORTIS was being specced in the 1990s, the technology to encode magnetic stripe tickets in a portable device was cost-prohibitive, if it even existed at all. Click to expand Try 80s Portis was in use when I transferred to Newcastle in 89 and Sportis came along soon after Last edited: 19 Jul 2021 18 Jul 2021 #30 M

mmh

Established Member

Joined 13 Aug 2016 Messages 3,751 island said: I imagine when SPORTIS was being specced in the 1990s, the technology to encode magnetic stripe tickets in a portable device was cost-prohibitive, if it even existed at all. Click to expand
Try TFW's current ticket vending machines. 2021, and they still can't do it. Issue tickets that barriers can't read all the time. Which isn't a problem, unless you're arriving somewhere like Blackpool North with one. 1 2 Next 1 of 2

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